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Post by davemoser on Sept 27, 2020 19:02:12 GMT -5
I think it’s time to get this board back to discussion about baseball instead of some of the trash it turned into
So at what age do you think it’s right to have the kids call the game?
I called pitches for the Calvert Tide 12U last year, and there was some situations at 0-2 I would say to the catcher what ever you want. The pitchers always had the ability to shake me off all season (which happened a decent amount). So that had our coaching staff considering letting the catchers call the game at 13U. No coach has called a pitch so far this year and it seems to be working. I think what is good about it is it makes whoever is catching and pitching to talk in between innings. It allows the pitcher to throw what he is comfortable with while allowing the catcher to think about the batter and situation. I ultimately feel what ever the pitcher is comfortable with is the best solution. The cons to it is we have to track how many of specific pitches are being thrown. There is usually always a discussion with the pitcher and catcher between innings about the previous inning to dissect the innings and maybe provide some advice.
Not sure how many people called pitches before, there is always times where we as adults say why did I call that? I can’t say we are doing the right thing but I feel confident that we are helping these guys be comfortable. So if you see back to back curve balls or 3-0 curve ball or change up, that’s what the pitcher wanted to throw.
Let’s hear a little discussion on the matter, I don’t care if you tell us we are wrong or right, but rather try and swing the board for what it should be used for.
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Post by stevesaraullo18 on Sept 27, 2020 19:55:17 GMT -5
Dave
You and I have discussed this since you made my son look silly going back to back curves at 3-0 and 3-1 to then run a fastball under his hands. This was done 1 out of respect for the hitter and 2 your knowledge of the game.
We have started to let catchers call the game this fall especially in pool play or scrimmage games and in some elimination games. Tonight we had a long practice each pitcher got a pen and then live batters. Catchers called the whole time, I was shocked as to their knowledge and ability to command the staff. Only 1 or 2 times did I stop and say tell me why you called it and explained why it may not of been the best call, and my thought process to the at bat and pitch calling. It really gets your catchers thinking more, learning the art of calling the game and gives your pitchers and catchers a sense of ownership. I think what I learned and helped me the most once I started calling the game was when I was hitting, knowing if I’ve been late I’m more then likely going to see another fastball and not speed my bat up.
But watching higher level ball to include local private school high school up to the MLB seems most coaches take the rains and call the games.
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Post by davemoser on Sept 27, 2020 20:07:04 GMT -5
Yeah I know of a few HS that kids call own game. The way I look at it is I was not always right, so why not let them have some fun with it. The most important thing is I wanted the pitchers to know it’s their game, your comfort zone and your responsibility. Make them men, not followers. If they get lit up learn from it. Guarantee they go back to back change ups and the 2nd gets yanked instead of high fastball under the hands, they will think differently. Training wheels off
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Post by RBA Coach on Sept 28, 2020 14:06:26 GMT -5
Good discussion here. With my older boys (some of whom are graduated and gone now) I had a catcher with a very high baseball IQ and who had worked hard with about 4 or 5 pitchers and they knew one another really well due to playing together for a good while. I allowed him to call games, including championship games, starting at 13u. They won some of them without me while I was off coaching the 9u Blue Sox boys at the time, go figure, one can only live vicariously through a child so much and think he has anything to do with their success! lol. Starting last summer, late in the season, I asked my top baseball IQ catcher start calling the games some (12u) and I have done it with him multiple times now in fall baseball at 13u. He has likewise taken the time to study the game, the batters, and knows his top guys on the mound and knows what their "stuff" is like that particular day. I always tell the pitchers that they are in control however and they can shake and bake as much as they feel like they need to. My goal is that by 14u all of my catchers can call a game and do so pretty well. Because these guys have had to sit under the coaches thumb micro managing them for so long, I have taken the approach to learn together and laugh together if a catcher or pitcher throws the "wrong" pitch in a situation or if a pitcher just misses a spot and a kid his a laser as a result (or beats him on a good pitch thrown). You have to tip your cap. Being honest it used to really aggravate me; but that was just me taking myself way too seriously. My vote is cast for letting guys learn to call their own games as soon as they want to do it and show that they will be ambitious and thoughtful about it. Makes them a more complete ball player IMO. That said, I have zero problem with coaches who call games. Sometimes a guy just doesn't like the pressure (a catcher) or has more to learn about situational pitching, etc. Heck, one of my top 2 boys is shut right now so I have 3 and 4 taking more reps at catcher...and they need a little more guidance still also. Situational. And sometimes it's just a coaches philosophy which is OK as well. I personally enjoy seeing the kids have to learn to think on their feet more and become students of game. Just a preference...and right now were are somewhere in the middle...but we are getting there. At least one guy calls all of his pitchers innings at this point.
In closing, I too remember Dave having some of my kids spinning out of their shoes. Credit his boys for executing those pitches. Fond memories! If they have learned anything at all from him they will be all the better for it and ready to roll without those training wheels!
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Post by RBA Coach on Sept 28, 2020 14:18:44 GMT -5
One more note. I agree I see lots of the higher levels are calling things to the Nth degree from the dugout. It's my belief that it is not because the catcher/pitcher is not capable or they are really managing that as a coach, per se. Big bucks goes into it...it's all about analytics, matchups, fielding shifts, etc. For us guys at these ages it's really more about the old eyeball test and then having pitcher just beating a hitter or vice/versa, flat out. That's why I think the boys can handle it, sometimes we don't give them enough credit for what they can come up with. Granted we all know each other pretty well now and try to nag at the players we are familiar with in certain ways...and maybe we play the field a little differently as a result, but not to that degree of the higher levels with the data tools at their disposal. That's where I can see a coach stepping in for a player in a certain situation even if the boys had been calling their own game for the most part. Close game, late in the game, certain type of hitter...make a mound visit and talk about how we are going to pitch that guy and the guy after him and what the fielders are going to do, etc.
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Post by oldtimer on Sept 28, 2020 18:08:14 GMT -5
I think there are very few youth catchers who have the baseball IQ or knowledge of the whole staffs strengths/ weaknesses to call a game.
In the majors pitchers have no problem shaking off what they don’t like but some youth pitchers may not feel comfortable with it.
If the majority of high school catchers called their own game I could see younger kids doing it but don’t think that’s the case.
I have seen some kids who were pretty good pitchers in part because of the pitch calling of their coaches.
Some kids might be good enough to throw a change up or curve on a 2-0 or 3-2 count.
Some kids can hit a spot some just need a target over the middle of the plate.
I also don’t like the idea of a catcher calling a game at the expense of the pitcher. Just because a catcher wants doesn’t mean he should
To the RBA coach - it’s one thing if you have a high IQ catcher who knows the game, the staff and studies but how many of those kids are out there. Especially since most tournament travel reams catch ( I hope) 2-3 kids
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Post by davemoser on Sept 28, 2020 18:42:43 GMT -5
Old Timer I understand what you are saying and it makes sense to me. Ultimately I guess our goal is wanting the pitcher to throw what they are comfortable with. It is nice seeing the catcher and pitcher on the same page with not a lot of shaking off. I did watch a pitcher shake off 4 times and was thinking, what the hell he only has 3 pitches lol. I think this a a great topic and there are plenty of opinions we can learn from and probably things we may not have considered.
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Post by Old(er)timer on Sept 30, 2020 7:23:47 GMT -5
Usually I agree with Oldtimer, not here. I agree that a coach with 30 years experience and thorough knowledge of his kids strengths and weaknesses is better prepared to call a game for the "win". My goal is to get kids ready for the next level, and that includes them thinking for themselves on the field in each situation. Hopefully they hear the ghost of my coaching with the helpful reminders, stay down on the ball, keep your head in, first step back, executing pickoffs, rundowns etc. The same goes for pitch calling, we coaches show them, teach them and then step back. My team started calling their own at 11U, and all do now even the "guest catcher" who are not intune with our staff. Pitchers learn to "take charge" and own their pitches. Sometimes the kids throw the "wrong pitch" and get hit hard. Lesson learned. SO I agree with oldtimer almost every time.  |
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Post by TIde Dad on Sept 30, 2020 10:39:25 GMT -5
Dave, I love that you are letting them grow and learn on their own. Watching our catchers and pitchers talk in the dugout, during warm-ups and at practice about what is/is not working is the growth and experience they need to get to the next level which is high school ball right now! You know the impact you are having on one of the catchers! I think letting them call the game also is teaching them a life lesson about owning their mistakes when they mess up... We've been together for a while now and its what I love about out Tide coaches... we as parents have given you boys and you all are making them men before our eyes.
Again, this is a dad's point of view...
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Post by dbhlwh on Oct 2, 2020 22:48:53 GMT -5
Darn, I coach 9U and I'm going to have re-learn signals from the dugout next year? Guess we'd better starting teaching the kids to throw some different pitches too....
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