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Post by Commin Sense on Jul 30, 2018 7:21:53 GMT -5
To add to the previous threads....the amount of kids at 9,10,11, and 12 throwing curve balls or anything spinning is appalling. Most if not all of these kids have improper mechanics and no neuromuscular control. On top of fatiguing their arms with exaggerated pitchcounts they break down. Every coach and/or organization says they are about “development” yet their actions speak otherwise.
My other point is when the distance is 46 and 50 feet how much does the ball actually “break”? It seems pointless anyway. Coach and teach change-ups and locate 2 and 4 seam fastballs. The goal is to help prepare the kids to make their high school team, period.
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Post by Sig on Jul 30, 2018 15:27:42 GMT -5
To add to the previous threads....the amount of kids at 9,10,11, and 12 throwing curve balls or anything spinning is appalling. Most if not all of these kids have improper mechanics and no neuromuscular control. On top of fatiguing their arms with exaggerated pitchcounts they break down. Every coach and/or organization says they are about “development” yet their actions speak otherwise. My other point is when the distance is 46 and 50 feet how much does the ball actually “break”? It seems pointless anyway. Coach and teach change-ups and locate 2 and 4 seam fastballs. The goal is to help prepare the kids to make their high school team, period. No issues with curves here, although we teach the football method which doesn't have the wrist snapping. Some of our kids are also throwing changeups (best pitch in baseball next to a well-placed fastball) and knuckleballs.
No correlation between curves and arm injuries. Arm injuries are more so related (primarily) to overuse and poor mechanics.
Pitch counts are one thing; and some of these pitch counts, as I said earlier, are downright criminal. Beyond pitch counts, I think coaches need to be aware of how much kids are throwing in between starts... how much are they warming up... are they long tossing (should be)... how much are your catchers pitching... are all of your kids stretching and working in some j-bands.
I'm a research guy. So I'll go with the research. Couple that with consistently monitoring your kids, including asking them how their arms feel, and I think you're in good shape.
Our team is blessed as we have a ton of pitching depth. So while we actively monitor use, it isn't too much of a concern. Others teams aren't so lucky. So overuse could become a trap for a good pitcher.
And much like Steve, I've been there and done that... my throwing arm hasn't been straight for 18 years. Back then, there weren't too many coaches that asked how your arm felt. Sadly, even with all of this research at our fingertips, there's still some horror stories out there. It's unexplainable. And parents, unfortunately, should take a very active role in monitoring throwing too.
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Post by Commin Sense on Jul 30, 2018 20:05:52 GMT -5
I would error on the side of caution and agree with Dr James Andrews:
“My rule of thumb is, don't throw the curveball until you can shave, until your bone structure has matured and you have the neuromuscular control to be able to throw the pitch properly”.
A really good change-up and fastball location is all one kid needs to be successful.
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Post by loudcoachsteve on Jul 31, 2018 18:44:27 GMT -5
I agree with a lot said but how many kids will look at you and say yes coach my arms hurting? We as coaches need to be educate our selves for signs of laboring and fatigue. A kid may throw 60 pitches in a game, but that first inning he threw 35-40 and then a 1-2-3 inning and he's right back out there. They are already hitting muscle failure due to the high pitch count inning 1. So once a pitcher hits muscle fatigue 1 pitch really equals 3-4 pitches.
As for curveballs I was totally against it until my son went to a very well respected coach and learned the proper way. And if I see he goes away from the proper way he doesn't throw it again that game. Even and 46-50 feet there are some mean benders being thrown.
Bottom line we as coaches and parents need to do some honest reasearch and some honest soul searching when it comes to our kids. Everyone loves to watch them play especially in big time tourneys. But who cares when they are sitting there in a sling for a season and going through a year of rehab and possibly never throwing the same again.
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Post by BSC on Aug 1, 2018 9:08:07 GMT -5
Any travel coach who coaches kids 13u or below and can't follow the NFHS guidelines for HS freshman should not be coaching baseball. These black/white rules are written based off of 14 year old kids and years and years of medical research. If you don't adhere to these counts at 9u, 10u, 11u, 12u and 13u then you need to held accountable.....here they are:
0-20 pitches, no days rest
21-35 pitches, 1 day rest
36-50 pitches, 2 days rest
51-65 pitches, 3 days rest
66-95 pitches, 4 days rest
max allowed in one day is 95 pitches.....
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bamf
Gold Member
Posts: 60
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Post by bamf on Aug 1, 2018 12:07:53 GMT -5
Any travel coach who coaches kids 13u or below and can't follow the NFHS guidelines for HS freshman should not be coaching baseball. These black/white rules are written based off of 14 year old kids and years and years of medical research. If you don't adhere to these counts at 9u, 10u, 11u, 12u and 13u then you need to held accountable.....here they are: 0-20 pitches, no days rest 21-35 pitches, 1 day rest 36-50 pitches, 2 days rest 51-65 pitches, 3 days rest 66-95 pitches, 4 days rest max allowed in one day is 95 pitches..... These are guidelines not hard and fast rules, there are a lot of circumstances and situations that effect what a pitcher's count should be for the day. Many of these (heat, conditioning, how many pitches in an inning, etc) have been discussed on this thread. These numbers should be the max number with the minimum amount of rest. So if a pitcher only goes 50 pitches but it was in two innings and he had arm issues a month ago and its 95 degrees and he eat crap and he has been playing third every inning of the tree games you played on Saturday...he should be rested for more than 2 days. Conditioning, mechanics, diet, rest, proper stretching (dynamic first then static once the muscle is warm), proper warm up/prep (grabbing the left fielder in the middle of the 5th and taking him directly to the mound to be a relief pitcher is bad!!!, plan ahead and replace him before the inning and allow him to warm up before you pitch him) are many of the things that need to be done to allow these KIDS to reach these numbers.
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Post by DHicks on Aug 1, 2018 12:12:15 GMT -5
Only guidelines to youth baseball, but those are the actual NFHS rules that every high school in the state of MD has to follow. The NFHS determines their pitch count rules (pitch count/rest day ratio) based upon decades of research and a panel of orthopedic surgeons. Edited: every state follows different rules following the NFHS rule book. Here is a website that lists every state www.baseballamerica.com/stories/high-school-pitch-count-rules-by-state/
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Post by oldtimer on Aug 1, 2018 17:33:26 GMT -5
Just throwing a few things out there - the “football curve “ may be safe and is effective but it is not the same curve kids will throw when they are older. So while a kid may be more successful now you could make an argument they we be better off working on fastballs and change ups. Either way though this pitch isn’t an injury risk no no big issue with it.
Forgot the name but last year stumbled on a sports medicine forum that Glen Flesig(probably mispelled) post on. He helped write pitch smart. I asked him what pitches were safe for a13 year old to throw? According to him if the kid could control the fastball and had good mechanics a curve and slider(was surprised) We’re fine .
There is a YouTube video from MLB that Al Leiter did. He demonstrates a curve and believe he said his curve was less taxing on his arm that his fastball,
Bottom line ,every kid is different and when time to learn breaking ball make sure they learn it properly. And if you can’t throw a fastball for a strike don’t bother. Cracks me up when I see a kid with poor mechanics who can’t throw a FB over the plate break out a curve.
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Post by Commin Sense on Aug 1, 2018 18:17:31 GMT -5
I guess kids should just keep throwing curve balls and not fast balls then if they have “proper” mechanics. It’s less taxing on the arm. Who is to say a coach who hasn’t played above high school to notice what proper mechanics are? What are the qualifications to see these proper mechanics? There is a difference in reading articles and watching youtube videos than playing at a high level (D1 or Pro ball). I did both and no one I played with would allow such nonsense at these ages. Nerds doing studies compare nothing to Dr Andrews and Kremchek and any other orthopedic that strongly discourage curve balls before puberty. They see kids every day and perform UCL surgeries by the thousands. We can agree to disagree but I can sleep well at night.
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Post by oldtimer on Aug 1, 2018 19:19:38 GMT -5
I guess kids should just keep throwing curve balls and not fast balls then if they have “proper” mechanics. It’s less taxing on the arm. Who is to say a coach who hasn’t played above high school to notice what proper mechanics are? What are the qualifications to see these proper mechanics? There is a difference in reading articles and watching youtube videos than playing at a high level (D1 or Pro ball). I did both and no one I played with would allow such nonsense at these ages. Nerds doing studies compare nothing to Dr Andrews and Kremchek and any other orthopedic that strongly discourage curve balls before puberty. They see kids every day and perform UCL surgeries by the thousands. We can agree to disagree but I can sleep well at night. If you read the first line of my post I was just throwing things out there for discussion. Last year I was curious on when my kid who was 2 years from high school should/ could start learning a breaking ball. I posted some of the things I found.(by the way he still doesn’t throw one) Also read shouldn’t start until you are ready to shave. The YouTube video was from a highly successful Major League pitcher. The doctor i mentioned was instrumental in LL putting in pitch counts which now is used by several youth rec and even some travel leagues. I don’t see it as disagreeing with you just pointing out there are several different opinions . Not sure playing D1 or college ball is a prerequisite for noticing proper mechanics though. And not to go on another tangent but some college coaches aren’t the most prudent about pitch counts in the college world series.
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Post by loudcoachsteve on Aug 2, 2018 13:00:57 GMT -5
I personally played high level ball all my life until I fell to the over use injury. I never injured my arm from a curve ball , I did it throwing 157 pitches in one game at AAU Nationals in Lowell Mbuttachusetts. My coach never kept a pitch count and I'll never forget when the coach from Chet's Lemons Juice came over to my dad and said "hey your son deserves the iron horse award, he threw 157 pitches that game." I'll never forget my dad almost going to jail as he went after my coach.
There are so many opinions and teaching techniques on propert machanics, from pitching and hitting.
After starting to take my son who will play 11u this next season, to a pitching coach (Matt Selmer) who is from API I realized I knew Jack about true pitching machanics. I was always a thrower who threw hard enough to pump ched past kids and had a good change and ok breaking ball.
I personally feel more comfortable letting my son throw a breaking ball here and there and keep his pitch count low, and not even get to the point of obviously being tired than not let him throw a curve ball and let him throw 100 pitches in a game.
To many times every weekend do you look at a GameChanger and see kids at 9-11u throwing well over the 100 pitch mark in one game. Do we as coaches and parents sometimes get caught up in the moment and let a kid go to far , yea we are human. But when you see the same team letting kids every weekend break 100 pitches in a game and then throw again 2 games later. To me this is straight up child abuse. How about we build our team to have enough arms to go through a weekend tourney. This isn't week long tourneys where someone may throw more than others. If you as a coach can't develop 8 kids to throw strikes then hang it up or look for help.
As I said I coach and I send my own son to a pitching coach cause I know I don't know everything.
Coaches need to read the man in the mirror, because it's not your future your reuining it's a kids life, and dream.
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Post by DHicks on Aug 2, 2018 13:50:53 GMT -5
“To many times every weekend do you look at a GameChanger and see kids at 9-11u throwing well over the 100 pitch mark in one game. Do we as coaches and parents sometimes get caught up in the moment and let a kid go to far , yea we are human. But when you see the same team letting kids every weekend break 100 pitches in a game and then throw again 2 games later. To me this is straight up child abuse. How about we build our team to have enough arms to go through a weekend tourney. This isn't week long tourneys where someone may throw more than others. If you as a coach can't develop 8 kids to throw strikes then hang it up or look for help.”
Well said! The top teams in 13u (rising 14u) all have 8 or more kids on the team that can pitch. It didn’t start magically or out of nowhere. These teams were formed at 9u-11u with the purpose to get as many arms as possible that can pitch. Simply break down the kids on the team by league pitchers, Saturday pool play pitchers, and Sunday championship pitchers. Kids get moved around through the three based upon performances, but overall they learn how to locate fastballs and keep hitters off-balance with change-ups while gaining experience on the mound. Occasionally you mix the kids up depending on who needs more time during league play, but practices should also be planned with bullpen and batting practice (older kids throw BP) sessions in mind.
Coaches should keep a magnifying glbutt on the NFHS rulebook/guidelines in order to protect arms and at the same time build arm strength. If coaches arent capable of making these decisions or figuring out themselves...it is perfectly fine to ask for help.
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Post by oldtimer on Aug 2, 2018 14:36:46 GMT -5
“To many times every weekend do you look at a GameChanger and see kids at 9-11u throwing well over the 100 pitch mark in one game. Do we as coaches and parents sometimes get caught up in the moment and let a kid go to far , yea we are human. But when you see the same team letting kids every weekend break 100 pitches in a game and then throw again 2 games later. To me this is straight up child abuse. How about we build our team to have enough arms to go through a weekend tourney. This isn't week long tourneys where someone may throw more than others. If you as a coach can't develop 8 kids to throw strikes then hang it up or look for help.” Well said! The top teams in 13u (rising 14u) all have 8 or more kids on the team that can pitch. It didn’t start magically or out of nowhere. These teams were formed at 9u-11u with the purpose to get as many arms as possible that can pitch. Simply break down the kids on the team by league pitchers, Saturday pool play pitchers, and Sunday championship pitchers. Kids get moved around through the three based upon performances, but overall they learn how to locate fastballs and keep hitters off-balance with change-ups while gaining experience on the mound. Occasionally you mix the kids up depending on who needs more time during league play, but practices should also be planned with bullpen and batting practice (older kids throw BP) sessions in mind. Coaches should keep a magnifying glbutt on the NFHS rulebook/guidelines in order to protect arms and at the same time build arm strength. If coaches arent capable of making these decisions or figuring out themselves...it is perfectly fine to ask for help. Agree with majority of this but some of the top ten teams have acquired pitching last few years(nothing wrong with that) but before that they overused kids when they were younger.
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Post by loudcoachsteve on Aug 2, 2018 16:12:59 GMT -5
I just don't understand how us as coaches, who are suppose to be roll models and guiding our youth allow this bull💩 To happen over and over. If you make a mistake one time ok I get it. I did it this year, my son threw 38 pitches on Saturday. Sunday came in and closed the quarterfinal game for one inning, and then threw a complete game 6innings 78 pitches. I totally got caught up in the moment and excitement of seeing him succeed. For him to throw 6innings and no walks, and only 1 earned run I got caught up. When I got home I sat down like I do every weekend and reviewed the stats. I was pissed at myself when I did this. So I do get it.
We as coaches need to realize no cheap butt trophy is worth any kids aspirations to play at the next level. We need to be better coaches and develop more kids and build a defense to back the kid up that's gonna throw strikes and we know the ball will be put in play. ManBun and the group down in Calvert are a great example of this.
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Post by loudcoachsteve on Aug 2, 2018 16:15:55 GMT -5
Oh and Baseball Dad I still haven't seen you respond since you wanted to be a smart butt and call my team out for loosing to Diamond Pros.
So I am waiting on when you want that free beer and discuss how it's bull💩 For what was done to the same 4 kids all week.
And don't say it was a GameChanger error for not changing the pitcher cause remember we were at the same complex watching to.
And if you don't know who I am, my real name is steve saraullo since you want to hide behind a fake baseball dad name.
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